Suicide Zen Forgiveness

Michele Bell | The Grief Warrior®
"The creative world is as much a part of my life, and the mental wellness community equally so. My sacred tools bridge these two industries by transforming how we support artists." -Michele Bell
 
Michele is an award-winning screenplay writer, storyteller, and survivor. She is a recovering grieving mother with an extraordinary eye for truth and the wisdom of gifted DISCERNMENT. With her insight and agility, Michele has the power to cut through life's complexities with remarkable precision. Her innate wisdom enables her to identify what matters most — enabling you to gain an invaluable ally on your journey forward. 
But Michele is so much more than just another healing mentor. 
She is a true Renaissance woman who lives on a powerful spiritual path. Her connection to the energies of LifePath 11 and Heyoka Shamanism allows for profound insight into personal growth and healing, while Enneagram 2 helps nurture an unconditional love for others. Her life’s resumé is a lengthy one… especially if you count what she’s overcome and accomplished as a solo mom. Amongst her many lists of credentials, Michele counts her life experiences as the most noteworthy, as she calls them the CAT credentials: 
Compassion. Authenticity. Trusting. 
 
She has recently launched Caregiver 101 and The 7 Stages of Grief Alignment Books: EMBRACE PIVOT with PURPOSE companion workbooks on AMAZON.
 
With a human design as a 1.3 Manifesting Generator, Enneagram 2, Heyoka Empath, and Life Path 11, Michele is grounded in abundance to help you create peace with the past, joy in the present, and hope for the future.
As a young gifted child, she’s faced bullies, welcomed grief, and endured pain. But most importantly, at 57 years young, she’s risen above them. Michele turned her grief into grace, letting it propel her forward, never holding her back. She’s pivoted from pain to purpose and is ready to help her clients do the same. 
 
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Lois Koffi is a transformational speaker/ trainer/ coach/ Ironman Triathlete that has coached thousands of people in business and healthy lifestyles since the year 2000.
She has seen so so many people focus on the external DOING of goal setting, new year's resolutions and intention setting and realized that most of our success lies WITHIN.
She has had her own awakening journey of working through addictive behaviors, depression/anxiety and struggles as well as many victories and successes.
She is here for YOU to get to the ROOT CAUSE of your health and wealth limitations.
She helps guide you with love and compassion with mind/body/spirit fitness as a transformational coach using guided visualization and many other tools in her vast tool belt to get you to live the life you LOVE with superconscious creation.
She is also one of very very few 12 Week Year certified trainers in the world
She lives in Southern California with her family and hosts retreats with her beloved husband, Didier, who is a shaman. They use sacred shamanic tools as well to help guide and support those that are open to that path of deep dive shadow work and trauma release.
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Lois Koffi - Transformational Coach/12 Week Year Trainer | Microdosing coach for addictive behaviors & mind/body/spirit health

Break the Cycle of Despair
Joan Baez--: “Action is the antidote to despair.”
So this is my taking action to break the Cycle of despair as I see it.. Within my own mind.
Hope is defined as a feeling of expectation and desire about a result. Hm. Interesting. And, despair is defined as the lack of hope, or lack of such a feeling of expectation and desire about a result.
I want to understand and map a way out of despair.. It seems for some of us.. Despair and its opposite hope are the continuous rollercoaster of our lives.  
At 16, when my friend took her own life, new years eve, 1971.. . It affected me in ways it took me decades to come to terms with… literally decades..
Not until 2013, when I was at a weekend workshop, I only attended to support a friend.. Did I actually give voice to my story… The right person asked the right question that opened the floodgates… To an extent..
Yes It was raw, real and probably really disjointed.  However, there was very little emotion in that first telling.. Except in looking back I know the anger seeped through a bit in places… 
Back to the despair/hope cycle -- or rollercoaster ride.. 
I really used to think I was the only one who felt this way… It’s kinda funny that the first thing people say about their situation is often that they are sure they are the only one who feels that way… Or has that quirk, or pain, or .. well whatever..  I didn’t have a name for it.. Would not have thought of either extreme as despair or hope to be honest.. I didn’t ever want to spend time in any emotion.. Emotion equaled pain therefor.. DO NOT FEEL any emotion and thus no pain..  Back then I was in physical pain 24/7 and did not have the tools to manage it  and had no time, no interest or bandwidth  to consider adding emotion to the mix.
It's important for me to note here that I now have a whole toolbox filled with meditations, mindfulness and visualizations that afford me the freedom from the cornucopia of drugs I used to ingest to try to get relief. 
LOL I can hear the laughter, how naïve... How simplistic... How very one dimensional... or is that two dimensional?
So these are my thoughts after some interesting research… I started by asking ChatGPT AI … and I want to share what it offered..  Let’s see what you think.. 
Q  What is despair?
The ChatGPT says-
Despair is a feeling of utter hopelessness and discouragement. It is a sense of being overwhelmed by negative emotions and a lack of confidence in one's ability to improve a situation. Despair can lead to feelings of sadness, depression, and even a loss of the will to live. It is often associated with difficult life events such as the loss of a loved one, financial problems, health problems, or relationship difficulties. However, it can also result from a more general sense of disillusionment with life, the world, or oneself. It is important to seek help if you are feeling overwhelmed by despair, as it can be a serious mental health issue that can impact one's quality of life.
Q How long does an emotion last
The length of time an emotion lasts can vary depending on a number of factors, including the intensity of the emotion, the individual's ability to regulate their emotions, and the events or circumstances that triggered the emotion.
Typically, emotions are experienced as intense and fleeting experiences, lasting anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes. However, the after-effects of an emotion can persist and influence a person's thoughts and behaviors for much longer, sometimes even for days or weeks.
For example, after experiencing a traumatic event, a person may continue to feel anxious or depressed for an extended period of time. Similarly, intense emotions such as anger or grief can linger and continue to impact a person's thoughts and behaviors even after the initial emotional response has subsided.
It is important to note that while emotions are natural and normal experiences, if they persist and interfere with daily life, it may be a sign of a more serious mental health issue and professional help should be sought.
Q Can acknowledging your feelings change your brain?
Yes, acknowledging your feelings can change your brain. The process of recognizing and naming your emotions is known as emotion regulation, and it has been shown to have a positive impact on the brain and overall well-being.
When you acknowledge your feelings, you activate the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain responsible for executive functioning, including attention and decision making. This activation allows you to process and regulate your emotions, reducing their intensity and impact on your thoughts and behaviors.
In addition, by acknowledging and expressing your emotions, you can increase activity in the brain's "social cognition network," which helps you understand and respond to the emotions of others. This can help improve your relationships and social connections, which in turn can positively impact your mental health.
Overall, acknowledging and regulating your emotions can change the way your brain processes and responds to them, helping to improve your emotional well-being and overall quality of life.
Q What are some quick things you can do to help you ease out of despair?
Here are some things that might help ease feelings of despair:
Reach out for support: Talking to a friend, family member, or a mental health professional can provide a much-needed outlet for your feelings and can help you gain a different perspective on your situation.
Practice self-care: Engage in activities that bring you joy and relaxation, such as exercise, meditation, or hobbies. Taking care of your physical and emotional well-being can help boost your mood and reduce feelings of despair.
Focus on gratitude: Practice gratitude by writing down things you are thankful for in your life. Focusing on the good in your life can help shift your perspective and reduce feelings of hopelessness.
Connect with nature: Spending time in nature, whether it be through hiking, gardening, or simply taking a walk, has been shown to have a calming and restorative effect on the mind.
Engage in mindfulness: Practice mindfulness by focusing your attention on the present moment. Mindfulness meditation and yoga can help reduce feelings of stress and anxiety and promote feelings of calmness and well-being.
Seek professional help: If your feelings of despair persist and are affecting your daily life, consider seeking help from a mental health professional, who can provide you with personalized strategies for managing your emotions and overcoming despair.
Remember, it is important to be kind to yourself and seek help if needed. It is okay to not be okay, and reaching out for support is a sign of strength, not weakness.
I think the AI answers were pretty good. I think we are at a place now where we can more easily reach out and share with someone that all is not well with us. 
I think it's important to make a point of talking about our feelings and emotions, our state of mind.  I believe it is even more crucial to get yourself to feel each emotion.  Emotions only last for about 90 seconds to a couple of minutes..  
Really allowing yourself to be in the moment.. With all of the not so nice or fun ones too… This means despair as to me, it’s one of the worst.  
So let's practice staying in touch with your internal self.  
One of the most important things you can do is make a point of staying in touch with your feelings, your emotions.. 
When you find it all too much … rather than stuffing down the emotion and choking back your feelings..  Like I have said for years.. Sometimes you just have to wallow. Yep.. wallow.. Not for long, know that The fastest way out of emotional pain is through it.
If you close your eyes and have a quick nap.. When you wake up, in those first few seconds you can choose to think a positive thought.. Be grateful for one small thing.. 
The softness of the blanket over you… hearing a bird at your window… taking that next breath -any little thing you can choose to be grateful for will start to grow a new seed of hope… tell yourself you accept you as you are.. That is the first step to self-love .. which is the early sign post on the road to self-confidence.   It’s all inside you… You can choose to start acting as if you were feeling better,  take the time to smile at yourself in the mirror. 
Did you know
When you let yourself wallow in your own feelings, particularly despair, you'll feel more comfortable around other people and their feelings. This can help you build bonds with others, and it can ease your loneliness. 
Believe me.. It’s never too late to begin a new story for yourself. And we have the ability to rebuild ourselves all the time.  The choice of how you react is always yours…
I’ll leave you with this Victor Frankl Quote: “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.”

Earnest R. James is a family man, father, and friend, with a heart for people. As a minister, mentor, and speaker, Earnest has dedicated his life to inspiring and uplifting others.
His mission is to help others deal, heal and fulfill. “Deal with your problems. Heal from your pain.Fulfill your purpose.” He spreads a message of hope and healing wherever he goes.
 
He believes that, “We must heal ourselves. When we heal ourselves, we heal our families. Our families healour communities. Our communities heal our world.”Earnest was raised in a two parent house hold, but recognized the effects of fatherlessness on his extended family and friends, who were being raised by single mothers.
Earnest is determined to heal families by helping fatherless mothers and daughters heal from their father wound with his Friend 2 Fatherless Daughters campaign and mentoring dads and sons with his M.A.N. U.P. (Men Activating Newly Untapped Potential) male mentoring program.
Earnest also is an advocate for education. After a few failures early in life, Earnest quickly rebounded to complete grammar school, finish high school in three years, and became a college graduate. Earnest is now an entrepreneur, business owner, minister, and speaker. Earnest believes “If you must fail, fail fast and fail first. That way you can rebound and rebuild your life. Then help others do the same.”
Earnest is an author, social media influencer, online course creator, and workshop instructor.Earnest has been a guest speaker on several podcasts, as well as hosting his own podcast, Deal to Heal with E. James Podcast. Earnest plans on sharing his message with as many people as will listen.Earnest can be contacted to speak at your event or to host a workshop by booking at www.dealhealfulfill.org .
He is also available to be a guest on your podcast or social media platform. Earnest is willing to aid, assist, and partner with likeminded people, who will help him carry out his purpose to help others to deal, heal, and fulfill.
 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj4CU0HH0VJbSZr0DCDM83gFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/DealtohealTik Tok: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRV8t6kdInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/deal2healpodcast/Tee- Shirts: https://deal-2-heal-tees.myshopify.com/flow.page/dealtohealwithejamespodcast

Meet Derick Fage
Derick is the host of Daytime Ottawa on Rogers TV and you can often hear him on CityNews Ottawa discussing local, provincial and national issues. Over his 18-year television career, Derick has demonstrated an amazing ability to connect with people, young and old. Derick is authentic and isn’t afraid to be vulnerable, which is something guests and viewers have grown to appreciate over the years.  
In 2012, Derick was awarded the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal for his community work and contributions to charitable organizations. He received this award well before going public with his personal struggle of living with chronic fecal incontinence since birth.Following his public admission, he accepted the role of ambassador for the Canadian Continence Foundation in the hopes of helping others who are living with any number of challenges. Derick is also the president of the foundation. 
Derick has given inspirational and impactful talks, including his powerful TEDx Talk based on themes of; living with an invisible medical condition, bullying, living with mental illness, isolation, living life to its fullest, human connection, building meaningful relationships, the benefits of being authentic and the importance of being kind to one another.
Derick’s Links
Please View Derick's TEDx Talk on my Relentless Pursuit of Happiness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-B4gEktREc&t=50s 
Host, Daytime Ottawa on Rogers TV
https://www.rogerstv.com/show?lid=12&rid=4&sid=68 
Media Personality, Host, MC, Professional Speaker, TEDx Speaker, Live Auctioneer
President and Ambassador, The Canadian Continence Foundation: 
https://www.canadiancontinence.ca/EN/
E-mail: derick.r.fage@gmail.com 
Cell: 613-986-5124
Website: http://www.derickfage.com/ 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/derick.fage 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/derick.fage/?hl=en

Andy Grant has been helping people for over a decade as a best-selling author, award-winning speaker, Transformational Energy Coach, Healer, suicide prevention activist, and host of the Real Men Feel podcast. He holds certificates in Positive Psychology, the Enwaken Coaching System, Akashic Records, Life Activation, and other leadership programs and energy work modalities.
 
Known as the King of Authenticity, Andy is the founder of Real Men Feel, a movement encouraging men to come out of the emotional closet. Andy has been producing and hosting the Real Men Feel podcast since February of 2016.
 
As a survivor of multiple suicide attempts, Andy knows how low we as human beings can feel, and he is committed to helping people realize how magnificent life is meant to be. His Amazon best-seller, Still Here: How to Succeed in Life After Failing at Suicide, has helped people around the globe and includes everything he wished he knew at a younger age. Andy is also a facilitator at MensGroup.com, a contributor at GoodMenProject.com, and an initiate of the Modern Mystery School.
 
Learn more at TheAndyGrant.com
 
Explore working together with a complimentary Clarity Call. You'll get clear on what you want, what's in your way, and what you can do about it. Visit TheAndyGrant.com/talk.
 
Social Links
Connect with Andy on Facebook:
facebook.com/AndyGrantLoveYourLife/
facebook.com/afgrant
facebook.com/realmenfeelshow
Twitter: 
https://twitter.com/NavitasCoaching
https://twitter.com/RealMenFeelOrg
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/andy_grant/
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LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewfgrant/
 
See all of Andy's books
https://amazon.com/author/andygrant
 
Real Men Feel
Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/real-men-feel/id1107137758
Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/show/78U5M6iDR2QWkPUl6Ch62c
YouTube
https://www.YouTube.com/realmenfeel
 

Katie Thornton MSW, LCSW
My guest is Katie Thornton, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and EMDR trained therapist, licensed in Colorado, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, Maine, North Dakota, Texas, Nevada, and Wyoming.
 
Katie has extensive experience working with individuals, families, and groups through a variety of challenging circumstances. Katie believes that change happens when people are given the support they need to draw on their strengths and realize their potential to live fulfilling and happy lives.
 
Katie provides both counseling and assessment services for children, adolescents, adults, and veterans. She approaches both services as healing processes, helping answer deep-seated questions that individuals might have. With a passion for supporting neurodiversity, Katie provides an environment of compassion and support to help individuals and families learn and thrive.
Get in Touch with Katie
support@katietlcsw.com
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Elaine Lindsay: And it's good to be here once again. So, uh, without further ado, I'm going to go ahead and bring Katie up on stage. Hello? Hello. Hi, uh, again. I will say thank you very much for joining me on the show. It's always, difficult to start the show in a positive way because we are often talking about things that are painful.
Mm-hmm. and, , I, I'm going to let you. Tell your story starting where you will. Mm-hmm. . Cause I think that's really important and you can, you can go ahead and I'll pop in when it's appropriate. Okay. Okay.
[00:00:54] Katie Thornton: So my name's Katie. I am here because I lost my dad to [00:01:00] suicide. I was a freshman in high. So we're actually coming up on 20 years this year in March.
So it's kind of like a big milestone moment, I guess. But yeah, I did lose my dad back in March of 2023, or sorry, 20 of oh three. So 20 years ago, March 18th. . It's been a, a rough road, but I think I'm kind of in this place now and it took me a lot of, a lot of work and a lot of time where I'm like in this post-traumatic growth stage where for the longest time it kind of shaped who I was, but not in a positive way.
I'm from a very small town, so everyone in my town knew me and knew my family, and knew my dad. They knew what happened. . So it kind of became my identity in high school. But it's not the identity that I wanted to live my life as, so I [00:02:00] worked really hard and it, it was a journey , that's for sure. Where there are times that I maybe looks like I was kind of like running away from the situation to create my, my new identity of whatever my identity was outside of that girl that lost her dad to suicide.
but I think that I found her over time, . And going through it defined me in a negative way to like, it has shaped me and it has motivated me and pushed me to where I am and who I am today. So I am a licensed therapist now, and I have no doubt that that's why I'm in the path that I'm went on. I developed like this sense of travel and adventure, which I.
is also part of what, I don't know, it was like part of my journey of discovering myself and who I was, cuz I would go and travel out on my own. So it was just me and my thoughts and my myself [00:03:00] of figuring out who I was. So I think it helped, it helped me to figure out who, who Katie truly is. Like just Katie by herself, who is she?
And I think that that helped me a lot. . Well, I, I have to interject there because just that like, I hope you give yourself enough credit or how, how together that was mm-hmm. , because as a teenager , we don't always react to things really well and, and smaller, much smaller things than, than losing your dad.
[00:03:40] Elaine Lindsay: Right. It, it had to be very difficult, especially in a small town because everybody does know what's going on with everyone else. Yep. Are you an only child?
[00:03:51] Katie Thornton: No, I have a younger brother. He is three years younger than me, so it's the two of. , we have very different lives. . You would think that we have [00:04:00] different parents and grew up in different houses, but yep.
Here we are. Same parents, same house . Yeah. It's, it's funny how we can be that different. My sister was five years younger than me. Mm-hmm. and chalk and cheese . Other, other than, you know, the family ResSem. We were absolutely nothing alike, . But how old were you when you first traveled on your own? I was, it was after college, after my undergrad.
So I went to college at 18 and I intentionally picked a university where basically no one from my high school was going. I think two people from my class went. , I mean, isn't that many? So I was like, okay, I'm fine with that. So I intentionally picked a college that no one else was going to, so no one else would know me.
I ended up transferring two years in and I [00:05:00] ended up transferring to the school that most of my high school went to . But it's, I mean, it's a large school. It's, it's Ohio State, so it's a large school, so Oh, yeah. I saw plenty of people from high school, but I also made a lot of connections outside of my high school.
So it was good. And then I graduated from college in 2010, and then in 2012 I moved to Korea and I lived there for two years. , and that's where like my traveling really started is any long weekend or any break that I had from work, I would go to another country. And then when my, I did that for the two years, so 2014 I was working on my master's and I had to come home for my internship basically.
But instead of coming straight home, I took the long way around and traveled around Southeast Asia and traveled Oh wow. For like three months. I got back in 2014, but I did three months of traveling at that time. Oh, wow. Were [00:06:00] you an adventurous child? I think it's always been in me. I like to, I, I mean, I grew up camping and sailing and all of that with my, my dad was a sailor, so that's what we would do all summer.
Every summer was go to the lake and we would camp and we would, would sail or get, we had a power boat too, so we did those. As a kid our traveling as children always kind of revolved around my dad's sailing. Ah, okay. So it's not like we did a lot of international travel or anything like that. So it was around either sailing or soccer cuz I played soccer.
So Uhhuh it was that. So I think it was always kind of in me, but it looked different because of life situations and I didn't have the power and the say or the money to go where I wanted to go as. . Yeah. It's a little different when you're a kid because you, you are at the mercy of your parents mm-hmm.
Right. Right. And what it is they wanna do. For sure. [00:07:00] Did your father compete in sailing mm-hmm. , or was it just He did. He did. Yeah, he did. He did. Every Sunday. . Wow. Ooh, okay. . That's it's a, it's a, a huge community, the sailing community. Mm-hmm. , but it's a, it's a very it's very different. , let's say from land lovers.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's a very, very different community. Yes. and, and your mom. Mm-hmm. . How did this affect your mom at the time? I think, I mean, her and I have talked about it a little bit, and I won't totally speak for her, but I think it was a rough time. They were, they were still married, they were still together.
It. In our house that it happened. So it was, I mean, I don't know. I, it would be really, really hard. I can't imagine to lose your husband is one thing, [00:08:00] obviously. So she lost her husband. She lost the father of children. Of her children. And then so navigating, how do you, how do you grieve that loss but still show up for your kids?
And I don't know how she did. . She did it , but I don't know how it is. I would imagine a very, very hard juggle to have to, to have to juggle, so, oh my God. Yeah. We thankfully have a, a lot of really amazing supports between friends or family. So I think that that is the number one way that we all kind of got through it is, I mean, the night that it happened, we probably had 25 people all there.
whether it be help take care of us or help take care of her, help take care of the house or him, or whatever the case may, may be. They were there the next day to be like, okay, my, my dad was the one that made the most money. So finances were, were a struggle and we didn't have [00:09:00] life, life insurance. Oh.
Right. So figuring out like, how do we navigate this whole thing financially? So she had friends show up and like, here's this application, here's what you need to do. Mm-hmm. , I will do it. This is what I'm doing. So I had a lot of people really take the reins on things and help us out. Oh, thank God for that.
[00:09:21] Elaine Lindsay: Cuz that doesn't always happen. Right?
[00:09:23] Katie Thornton: No, we were very, very fortunate that we have, we have a good team. Mm-hmm. . And it must be a good small town too. It, it is. I have my moments on how I feel about it. Yeah.
but there, there are definitely good things that have come out of it.
[00:09:41] Elaine Lindsay: Yeah. I, I think that, I think that's normal.
I think we all have mixed feelings about where we grew up and mm-hmm. and the people around us. It is of course, harder when you go through something traumatic, especially in high school.
[00:09:57] Katie Thornton: Right.
[00:09:59] Elaine Lindsay: You know, it, it's [00:10:00] hard for, it's hard for younger children and, and I'm, I'm sure it was very hard for your brother as well, but being in high school, on top of it being an awkward time as a human being, right.
There's all those hormones and, and you know, as you said, you didn't know who Katie was.. and this certainly didn't help.
[00:10:24] Katie Thornton: Right.
[00:10:24] Elaine Lindsay: But you're to be commended because not all of us who had a loss in our teenage years chose a good path or, or chose any path for that matter. Mm-hmm. in some cases because some people freeze.
Some people hide. Some people. , take the bull by the horns and, and mm-hmm. , go on and live their life. And, and you obviously did that, which I think is quite incredible. Yeah. Yeah. And also speaks to probably the, the strength of your mom. Mm-hmm. [00:11:00] did, was there, was there any indication, like, do you, you ever ask yourself, did you see something in your dad?
[00:11:13] Katie Thornton: I knew that night. Oh, we were we were supposed to go, well, we weren't, I wasn't going to go, but I ended up being in the car somehow, . We were supposed, the circus was in town, so we were supposed to be going to the circus that night.
[00:11:26] Elaine Lindsay: Okay.
[00:11:26] Katie Thornton: And there was like a whole thing of events that happened that day in that evening before going, so I ended up, I'm like, fine, I'll just go with everybody too.
and he was in the car, but he was still upset about the things that happened before. And he actually got out of the car and started to walk home.
[00:11:46] Elaine Lindsay: Oh.
[00:11:46] Katie Thornton: And my brother was like, let's go to the circus. I'm like, Nope. We're go like, we need to go home. And my mom knew we needed to go home. So I knew, and that's not the first time I knew like he had been in the hospital before.
Not that it had always been [00:12:00] communicated with me. Yeah. On that I. . I also knew at that time that there was something going on, whether I knew the extent of it or not, I don't, I don't know. But I knew something was going on, but I knew that night that things were not normal and not okay. And that we needed it to go home.
[00:12:19] Elaine Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that in itself were you closer to your dad than your. mom?
[00:12:27] Katie Thornton: My dad was always my coach for soccer, so we spent a lot of time together for sports. My mom and I are still very similar on a lot of things and I think that that caused a lot of tension and a lot of issues growing up. Yeah. My mom is my best friend now as an adult and everything, so I don't, I mean, I probably was closer with my dad cuz I just spent more time with him. with soccer and everything.
[00:12:56] Elaine Lindsay: But the reason I asked is because [00:13:00] often when it's children, if you are very close to the parent that you lose, you do have thesenot premonitions, but maybe feelings ahead of time.
[00:13:13] Katie Thornton: Mm-hmm. ,
[00:13:13] Elaine Lindsay: even, even when you don't know as a child, you, you know, there's so. .
[00:13:19] Katie Thornton: Right.
[00:13:19] Elaine Lindsay: You may not be able to articulate it.
[00:13:21] Katie Thornton: Mm-hmm. ,
[00:13:23] Elaine Lindsay: but that does make it difficult. And one of the reasons that I do this podcast is because I, I want us all to end the silence and, and deal with the stigma and the shame that people go through,
[00:13:40] Katie Thornton: right.
[00:13:41] Elaine Lindsay: Because, You lose a loved one. It does not matter to me how it happened. Mm-hmm. , you, you are suffering a loss of someone that you loved and
[00:13:51] Katie Thornton: Right.
[00:13:51] Elaine Lindsay: And that's what we need to remember.
[00:13:54] Katie Thornton: Mm-hmm. ,
what was your dad's first name?
Mike.
[00:13:58] Elaine Lindsay: Mike, okay. [00:14:00] That's, that's I don't know. It's something that I've always asked people because I think it's important to. To give voice to the names of those we've lost.
[00:14:11] Katie Thornton: No, I agree. I agree. I like making sure when I'm working with other people and talking to people that we are using their names too, so I like it.
[00:14:24] Elaine Lindsay: And do you have children?
[00:14:26] Katie Thornton: I do. I have two.
[00:14:28] Elaine Lindsay: Okay. And what are your thoughts on age appropriate for children when. As a therapist.
[00:14:38] Katie Thornton: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:39] Elaine Lindsay: when do you believe it's a good time to share? Like, maybe not in excessive detail, but share that you've lost someone?
[00:14:49] Katie Thornton: So, I mean, our kids are young, so I have a four, she'll be five in March, and then the other one is four months, so she's still itty bitty.
[00:15:00] Our four year old. . She, well, she looks at pictures of my dad and she, yeah, looks at him. She knows that that's her grandpa. She'll ask like, what's his name? Cuz she knows, like she knows that my mom is her grandma, but she doesn't call her grandma. So I let her name him cuz she's. also their first grandkid.
So I'm like, you get to, you get to name him, what do you wanna call him? So she calls him Pop Pop. She has pictures of him. She has her favorite pictures of him. She does ask, she has asked before, like where he is or if she can see him or visit him or something. I can't remember how it all happened exactly, but she has asked where he is.
and the conversation kind of threw me off guard at first cuz I'm like, you're two and a half where, why are you asking where pop pop is . Yeah. But we've gone to, and I think every family's gonna be different on how they handle the conversation and yeah, granted our [00:16:00] family is not super religious or anything like that, but I don't know.
The first thing that kind of came to both of us, cuz her other grandpa has also passed. . So the first thing that kinda came to both of us is like, your grandpas are in heaven. Yeah. And right now that's good enough for her. And she's like, yeah, they're in heaven. They're happy. So cuz we've had the conversation too of like, we've lost our dog.
So we've had to, to explain what happens and like why that's where her dog is. So then she's like, , our dog is with pop Pop, like they're having fun. So it gives her like that sense of peace and comfort, I guess. I don't know. And content. That's where, yeah, that's where we are with the conversation right now is pop, pop is in heaven.
And that's all she really knows. And that's all she's really asked. I'm sure that as she gets older she might ask more questions. . And I think that it's important too that at some point, whenever that point is, and I don't know when that's gonna be, , it is gonna be [00:17:00] important for her to to know at least a little bit.
She doesn't need to know the details if she doesn't want to kind of thing. But I think family history is important in mental health is part of her family history and our medical history. So at some point I think it is gonna be important for her to know. I just don't know when that time is gonna be yet.
We're just playing our cards as she throws them at us a absolutely.
[00:17:23] Elaine Lindsay: And that's actually why I asked because. , we are seeing kids younger and younger, not, not only not understanding
[00:17:33] Katie Thornton: mm-hmm. ,
[00:17:34] Elaine Lindsay: but not understanding the thoughts in their own brains.
[00:17:37] Katie Thornton: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:37] Elaine Lindsay: And the fact that we don't talk about it, we need to bring it out so kids know. Not every thought that runs through your head.
[00:17:45] Katie Thornton: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:45] Elaine Lindsay: is real. Or, or is true. And, and sometimes we, we can talk about those things now. and allow you to get that out of the way and, and not, [00:18:00] I don't wanna say cover up, but
[00:18:01] Katie Thornton: mm-hmm. ,
[00:18:02] Elaine Lindsay: you know, not, not push it aside.
[00:18:05] Katie Thornton: Right. Right.
[00:18:06] Elaine Lindsay: It's, it's important for, for us to acknowledge all of our mental health
[00:18:12] Katie Thornton: mm-hmm.
[00:18:12] Elaine Lindsay: and the fact that, you know, people in the family have gone through something, and you know, after P T S D affects so many people for so many reasons. I think it's really important that kids understand that as well.
[00:18:30] Katie Thornton: Yes, I think this kid is definitely a therapist child because we're very big on using our words and she's very big on her feelings.
[00:18:39] Elaine Lindsay: Oh, that's good. That's good. , you probably don't think so all the time,
[00:18:46] Katie Thornton: but not all the time. There are times that it can be challenging as a parent. But then I just remind myself of like, we want strong, independent women and that's what we're raising her to be, and. . It'll all be good. [00:19:00] It'll all be good for her in the long run.
[00:19:02] Elaine Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. There are challenge, there are definitely challenging days with children, for sure. . But I wanted, I wanted to say, and, and do you, do you think your, your father's death led you down the path of your career? or was it something you, it wasn't something you were leaning towards prior?
[00:19:29] Katie Thornton: I was always thinking about being in the field of like working with people and helping people.
So yes, in that aspect that's always been a thing. But specifically working on therapy and mental health? No. No, I think his death and the way that he did die is absolutely what pushed me into the mental health direction of helping people and working with people.. Because I was looking more like the medical side and the medical aspect, but after that I was like, no, that's [00:20:00] not the route that I want to go.
[00:20:01] Elaine Lindsay: I, it's, it's a very double edge sword that we have to live through these things to have full empathy for others who are going through these things.
[00:20:15] Katie Thornton: Right.
[00:20:15] Elaine Lindsay: And, and that makes you. very good therapist because you, you understand, right?
[00:20:22] Katie Thornton: I think, I mean, it definitely, it definitely gives me kind of that benefit is I've been through something too.
So yes, it gives that relatability and I, I say that all the time when I'm meeting with potential clients is like I can have the entire alphabet behind my name and I can have all the degrees and all the certificates and all the training in the. , but if you feel like I can't relate to you or I don't understand you, or you just don't like my personality, cuz that's a big thing too, I'm not the right therapist for you because that relationship between a therapist and a client is so [00:21:00] important and that is gonna be more important and more impactful and lead to more success than having the whole alphabet behind my name.
[00:21:11] Elaine Lindsay: Absolutely. I totally agree with. and it's, it's interesting cuz I've had this discussion about the medical field in general. . Mm-hmm. , I firmly believe that doctors, all doctors need to go through the process of surgery before you can fully understand how to be a good surgeon.
[00:21:34] Katie Thornton: Right, right.
[00:21:35] Elaine Lindsay: You know, and, and the same for dentists.
And I think it's really important for you to be able to have had that, that knowledge, that understanding, so that you can be much more empathetic.
[00:21:52] Katie Thornton: Right. No, I agree. I agree.
[00:21:54] Elaine Lindsay: And it will resonate, I'm sure, with your clients as well. Yeah, yeah. [00:22:00] And you have a, you have a rather broad based practice as well.
[00:22:06] Katie Thornton: I've definitely been in a lot of different areas throughout my career for sure.
Whether it be in working with children, working with families, working in schools, working in child protection. So I've definitely been in a variety of areas and then also working in like nonprofits or community mental health agencies. Oh, okay. So, and then private practices. And then I have just recently gone out on my own.
So now that I'm out on my own, I am being a little bit more like strict and narrow about what I take and like really honing in on my skillset and my area of expertise and all of. So now that I'm on my own, I am being a little bit more picky and strict about who I'm working with, but I feel like I kind of can be, and that's how I'm gonna be the most successful, is just really absolutely honing in on my, my [00:23:00] strengths.
[00:23:00] Elaine Lindsay: Absolutely. Because when, when that's what you bring to the table, then that's where you can be most effective. Absolutely.
[00:23:07] Katie Thornton: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:09] Elaine Lindsay: on that note we talked briefly before this about some, I think, I think it's exciting upcoming news.
[00:23:19] Katie Thornton: Yeah.
[00:23:20] Elaine Lindsay: What is it you're going to be doing in March?
[00:23:22] Katie Thornton: No, I am excited about it.
It's something that I have been wanting to do for a, a while in. life kept happening. So it hasn't happened yet, but it's going to, in March, I am going to start a group for people that have lost someone to suicide and working on helping people to find that strength again after losing a loved one to suicide and, and helping them through that process and that journey.
And I think in the mental health world, we always say it's okay to not be. Yeah, and that's absolutely true. Like it is okay for us to not have good days all the time because that's reality. Mm-hmm. , [00:24:00] we're human beings. And I feel like the other thing, especially with a suicide loss, is reminding people that it's also okay to be okay.
[00:24:10] Elaine Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:24:11] Katie Thornton: Because we have so much guilt, I think when it comes to suicide of like they were obviously in this not so good head space and that's where they were. And they were clearly struggling and battling and. fighting with themselves internally. So I think sometimes when we, we work through that grief, grief is hard and it's complicated and there's all these different things.
Yeah. And then when we get to that acceptance stage of grief, we can also be like, Ooh. Then there's this guilt of I shouldn't be okay. I shouldn't just be like going and living my happy life when. This person was going through all these terrible things and this is what happened. Like how can I, how can I be okay and live my life and be happy and excited?
So you feel guilty? And I [00:25:00] think it's a normal part of grief, especially with the suicide grief.
[00:25:04] Elaine Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:25:04] Katie Thornton: And I also want people to know that like, it's okay to still like be happy and excited about life. .
[00:25:12] Elaine Lindsay: And another piece to that is there is no timeframe.
[00:25:20] Katie Thornton: No, there's not a timeline on on grief, unfortunately. And just because there's the stages of grief and you've gone through the stages of grief.
doesn't mean that it's not gonna come back up for you another time. Life events seem to bring that grief back up where it's like, I've already gone through these things, so why am I going through, like, why am I depressed again? I was, I went through depression. Mm-hmm. . So why am I depressed? But life events seem to bring.
those things back up.
[00:25:50] Elaine Lindsay: I totally agree. I I've often thought it's kind of like a merry-go-round. Mm-hmm. , I, I don't wanna get back on, [00:26:00] but it's there and, and it's attached to me and there are things that. that are part of my history. Mm-hmm. and, and you find yourself sometimes right back on there.
[00:26:11] Katie Thornton: Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
[00:26:15] Elaine Lindsay: I know that over the years that's, that's been a, a common question for people is, well, how long is too long? Like, or How short is too short? And, and I think it's really important that we reinforce the fact. , everybody is individual.
[00:26:37] Katie Thornton: Mm-hmm. . Absolutely. It's gonna look different for everybody. Yeah. And it's gonna feel different for everybody.
[00:26:42] Elaine Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:26:43] Katie Thornton: And I mean, you can go back to the fact that my brother and I are in the same family and the same household, and we had the same like upbringing, but we grieved differently. And that doesn't mean that either one of us grieved right or wrong. No. We grieved the way that we needed to grieve at that.[00:27:00]
and, and that's a really super point. There is no right or wrong.
Mm-hmm.
[00:27:07] Elaine Lindsay: to grief. It just is however it is for you.
[00:27:13] Katie Thornton: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:16] Elaine Lindsay: And, and that's the other reason that I do the podcast is because we found that in sharing your story, it can somewhat lighten your. and can give you the opportunity to sometimes bolster the good memories and remember to say their names.
[00:27:40] Katie Thornton: Right. No, I think , I think it can be really empowering to share your story because there is so much stigma and there's so much judgment and negativity around mental health and around suicide specifically. . Where II think that there's times that we can be shamed for,
[00:27:58] Elaine Lindsay: yeah.
[00:27:59] Katie Thornton: For our [00:28:00] lives and our stories and our journeys, but when you go through it and you finally find your voice to be able to share your story and know that it can actually impact other people in yes, really positive ways.
It is also really empowering and therapeutic to just like get it out of you so it helps you and it can help other. .
[00:28:21] Elaine Lindsay: Yeah. And sometimes that's the, just that extra incentive you need. Mm-hmm. to deal with. Another little piece of your grief is to share your story.
[00:28:32] Katie Thornton: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:28:35] Elaine Lindsay: So is there something you would like to leave the audience?
That either something you find useful, something that, that you tell your clients, something that's intrinsically you.
[00:28:53] Katie Thornton: Ooh, I don't know. That's a hard one. I mean, [00:29:00] I do remind my clients like making, making yourself a. Especially as like as a parent you still have to put yourself first. And I know not everyone agrees with that, but we do have to make ourselves a priority so that we can take care of ourselves and we can show up the best way that we can show up in all of our other areas of life.
And then I also do, I like to, especially when it's suicide and those that have lost someone to suicide, is just reminding them that it is okay to be okay and it's okay to be happy and excited about life again. because that's what you deserve.
[00:29:41] Elaine Lindsay: That was beautifully said, Katie. Thank you so much.
[00:29:44] Katie Thornton: Of course.
[00:29:47] Elaine Lindsay: I really appreciate Katie Thornton being with us today, and I look forward to perhaps talking with you again, Katie.
[00:29:56] Katie Thornton: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:29:58] Elaine Lindsay: I'm Elaine Lindsay. This is [00:30:00] Suicide Zen Forgiveness. As per always make the very best of your today, every day.
I look forward to seeing you next time. Bye for now.

I'm thrilled to begin the new season with my amazing guest, Coach Nathaniel J Brown.
From childhood I was always curious. Taking the time to disassemble things for the sake of seeing how they work, and questioning things that didn't quite add up. But, at the age of 8 something happened that silenced me and for nearly 3 decades. I was sexually molested. The fallout from that trauma had taken its toll on my entire world. I battled with PTSD, night terrors, mis-identity, inferiority, anger, isolation and the overall feeling of not being enough. I hurt and betrayed so many people, and I knew that I could not sustain this way of living without utter self sabotage. Everything around me was crumbling and I had to take action if things were going to change. So, I got help. And, with that help, I began understanding how important it was for me to shift my perspective. After doing the deep inner work and shifting my mindset along with my perspective, I have made it my mission to help everyone, especially men, reconnect to who they truly are, separate from their traumas and outside of the "masculinity" labels of society. 
I believe that men and women who have taken the time to "re-see" their traumatic experiences with a new perspective, engage with life differently. They become better Fathers, Mothers, Husbands, Wives, Entrepreneurs and Leaders.
"There is a life worth living on the other side of trauma and I believe that when we embrace "that" life, we can truly Be, Do and Have whatever we desire." 
"Change Your Perspective. Change Your Story. Change Your Life."
“𝐼𝑛𝑠𝑝𝑖𝑟𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑌𝑜𝑢 𝑇𝑜 𝐿𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝐵𝑒𝑦𝑜𝑛𝑑 𝑌𝑜𝑢𝑟 𝐿𝑖𝑚𝑖𝑡𝑠!“
"The Most Important Thing That You Can Do For Your Future Is Take A Step NOW"
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This episode is a little different... With this being the Holiday Season 2022, I want to talk a little about some of the holidays that happen this December. We are taking a hiatus until the 10th of January  so this is the final show of season 3... I’m going to mention a few of the holidays coming up..with a little info on each of them. Dec 18th Hannukah began Dec 18th this year and continues for 8 nights until de 26th The Jewish Festival of Rededication, also called the Festival of Lights, is an eight-day celebration that falls each year on the Hebrew calendar date of 25 Kislev, which generally falls in December in the Gregorian calendar. (In 2022, Hanukkah is December 18 through December 26.) Hanukkah, also referred to as Chanukah, celebrates the rededication of the second Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The holiday is celebrated with the lighting of the menorah, traditional foods, games, and gifts. Dec 21st  Blue Christmas (US) Blue Christmas is a Western Christian tradition that happens on or around the longest night of the year, usually December 21 the Winter Solstice. It is about comforting fellow Christians who are grieving and struggling to find joy and hope during the season. Winter Solstice The Winter Solstice marks the day with the shortest period of daylight and the longest night of the year (in the Northern Hemisphere), all thanks to the tilt of the earth. In many cultures, the day is a day of feasting and celebration, but even if you’re totally agnostic, you can still find a reason to rejoice, because after today, you’ll see gradually shorter nights and longer days, which means you can look forward to the emergence of spring. Yule (UK) Yule comes up on December 21, on the winter solstice. It is the shortest day and longest night of the year, as the Sun gets its lowest elevation in the sky. Apart from the marking of a new season, the winter solstice also holds a significant symbol for the Sun. It appears to stand still on this day, it’s believed that the Sun is going through a rebirth. It would then gain momentum after the solstice. The holiday also depicts several pagan beliefs, especially that of the Holly King handing over power to the Oak King, ushering in a new season of light. Dec 23rd  Festivus  Festivus is on December 23 and it’s perfect for those who don’t have a traditional holiday to celebrate. Although it sounds paradoxical, its purpose makes a lot of sense. Not everyone has a major holiday to celebrate like Christmas, Hanukkah, or Kwanzaa and they can feel left out. This holiday gives many people a non-denominational and non-commercial holiday to call their own. Festivus is for everybody! Dec 25th Christmas Every year on December 25, we celebrate Christmas, a day for spending time with family, observing an important Christian holiday, partaking in lighthearted traditions, or just spreading some holiday cheer! Christmas has evolved over several millennia into a worldwide celebration that’s both religious and secular and chock full of fun-filled, family activities. Dec 26th  Kwanzaa  Heri Za Kwanzaa! Kwanzaa, celebrated from December 26 to January 1, is an African American and pan-African seven-day cultural holiday that celebrates family and community. During the holiday, families celebrate with feasts, music, and dance, and end the holiday with a day dedicated to reflection and recommitment to the seven principles.  Boxing day Boxing Day is held every December 26th in many countries associated with the British empire. It started as a day to give gifts to the household staff of Britain’s upper classes but has morphed into a sort of shopping holiday of its own. In fact, its one of the most popular days to return Christmas gifts to the stores. St Stephen's day in Ireland Dec 26th St. Stephen’s Day is still referred to as the Day of the Wren, especially in rural Ireland. Due to its Catholic roots, St. Stephen’s Day has been a holiday in Ireland for many years. It was only in 1871 that it became a public holiday after the Bank Holidays Act of 1871 was passed. Dec 28th National Call a Friend Day  Christmas is over and New Year’s is on its way. But in the meantime, December 28 is National Call a Friend Day! Between the stress of the daily grind at work, the needs of your family, and ensuring you have a little time for yourself, our lives can get awfully hectic. National Call a Friend Day reminds us all to take a few minutes, pick up the phone, and call that friend you’ve been meaning to get back in touch with. In modern times, technology has the capacity to unite us more than ever before. The internet isn’t fazed by distance, time zones, or how much money you have in the bank. But in our day to day lives of whizzing from one task to the next (or even multi-tasking on all our projects at once), technology often has the opposite effect. Checking emails, answering texts, responding to Facebook notifications, and other tech-based tasks can fill up our lives and actually make us feel less connected to the people we’re spending all our time connecting with! So with the holiday season rapidly drawing to a close this year, make an effort on December 28 to reach out with a phone call and connect, voice to voice, with a good friend.   Dec 31st Hogmanay Hogmanay is a Scottish word meaning “the last day of the year.” It’s celebrated in Scotland on New Year’s Eve, when Scots host house parties and exchange gifts. The celebrations are often followed by parties on both New Year’s Day and January 2, which is a bank holiday in Scotland. While the origins of Hogmanay are hard to pinpoint, its roots are thought to lie in Norse and Gaelic traditions. New Year’s Eve New Year’s Eve comes but once a year on December 31, the last day of the last month of what usually feels like the longest year ever but somehow passed too quickly. Most of us give little thought as to why we ceremoniously say goodbye to one year and hello to a new one on December 31.  Even those who don’t make special plans to greet the arrival of a new year at the stroke of midnight on December 31 pay homage to the rite with thoughts of the year gone by and hopes for the year to come. This was a bit lighter fare, with a few interesting dates and information.  However,  this can be such a tough time of year for anyone.   Thinking of  each of you through this  often difficult time.    Many folks struggle during the holidays. Some people are overwhelmed with sadness. Some are simply overwhelmed.  Reach out and talk to someone.. say hello. to a neighbour, a store clerk, someone you pass on the street..    Smile   Facial expressions do more than express emotions, they also provide feedback to the brain, which influences our emotions.   A new global collaboration led by researchers at Stanford University has shown that even fake or posed smiles can make people feel happier.   May the light of the holidays bring warmth and love into your household, and here's to hoping for a better year ahead. Thank you for listening.  Season 3 of The suicide Zen Forgiveness podcast comes to a close..  I will be taking the next few weeks to take stock of the year that has passed...and prepare for the new year to come... Let us know if there are topics you would like me to cover..  Guests you would like me to talk with..  I will return on January 10th, 2023

My guest today is Michelle Gil An author and speaker normalizing conversations about grief and loss, mental health advocacy and disability awareness. Her upcoming memoir, Don't Tell Me to Get Over It: A Father's Love, A Daughter's Grief comes out in ebook form soon. When she's not writing, she's trying new recipes from around the world, holding space for those who are hurting, and trying to convince her two cats, who think they're Egyptian gods, that they've already been fed. Michelle A. Gil Author | Speaker  The Grief Curator "Grief is not a problem to be fixed. It is love with nowhere to go." Facebook-TheGriefCurator  IG: @thegriefcurator Twitter-The Grief Curator Website: thegriefcurator.com